Sage Solutions
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Sage Solutions
Dependency Dynamics: Finding the Sweet Spot Between Independence and Connection
The dance between dependence and independence shapes every connection in our lives, yet few of us truly understand the patterns dictating our relationship behaviors. David and Hannah Sage unravel the complex spectrum of dependency – from the complete reliance we experience as infants to the fierce independence many strive for as adults.
Through vivid tree analogies and real-life examples, this thoughtful exploration reveals why neither extreme dependence nor rigid independence leads to fulfilling relationships. The hosts challenge the American ideal of complete self-reliance, pointing out that even the most "independent" among us rely constantly on others through the fabric of society, language, and cooperation.
The discussion takes a particularly illuminating turn when examining codependence – that tangled dynamic where one person's self-worth becomes enmeshed with another's needs. Using popular culture references like "The Notebook," the Sages show how media often romanticizes unhealthy dependency patterns. Ernest Hemingway's poignant quote about losing yourself while loving too much strikes at the heart of why codependence damages both individuals in a relationship.
Where does the balance lie? The podcast introduces interdependence as the relationship sweet spot – when two whole, capable people consciously choose to connect and collaborate because it enhances both lives. Drawing from Stephen Covey's principles of win-win thinking and synergy, the hosts demonstrate how interdependent relationships create something greater than either person could achieve alone – where one plus one equals three.
For anyone struggling with relationship patterns, this episode offers practical strategies to foster healthier connections: developing self-awareness about dependency tendencies, practicing honest communication, embracing vulnerability, and maintaining individual interests. The wisdom shared applies not just to romantic partnerships but to friendships, family dynamics, and workplace relationships.
Whether you're recovering from a codependent past or working to open up after years of fierce independence, this conversation provides a roadmap toward connections that nurture rather than deplete. Ready to transform how you relate to everyone in your life? Listen, reflect, and take one small step toward interdependence today.
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The Sage Solutions Podcast and content posted by David Sage is presented solely for general informational, educational, and entertainment purposes. No coaching client relationship is formed by listening to this podcast. No Legal, Medical or Financial advice is being given. The use of information on this podcast or materials linked from this podcast or website is at the user's own risk. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice, diagnosis, or treatment of a psychotherapist, physician, professional coach, Lawyer or other qualified professional. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical or mental health condition they may have and should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions. The opinions of guests are their own and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of the podcast.
Welcome to the Sage Solutions Podcast, where we talk about all things personal growth, personal development and becoming your best self. My name is David Sage and I am a self-worth and confidence coach with Sage Coaching Solutions.
Speaker 2:Hey guys, hannah Sage here, david's wife. Hey guys, Hannah Sage here, david's wife. I'm here with David in our studio and today we are going to explore three key concepts that shape how we connect with others. We're going to unpack some relationship dynamics and discuss independence, codependence and interdependence. All right, babe, take it away.
Speaker 1:As Hannah said, in today's topic we'll be going through the various different forms of dependency or lack thereof, and how they have a deep influence on our relationships with other people, not just our romantic relationships, but our friendships, our familial relationships and, to some degree, every single person you meet.
Speaker 2:But before we get into it, our goal with this podcast is to share free, helpful tools with you and anyone you know who is looking to improve their life. So take action, subscribe and share this podcast with them.
Speaker 1:So I'm actually going to break it down even further into four different topics Dependence, independence, codependence and interdependence. Understanding the difference between these isn't just academic. It's the key to unlocking healthier, more fulfilling connections with everyone in your life. So let's start with the first one Dependence. We all start in that same place. Everyone starts fully dependent as infants. We are completely reliant on our caregivers for survival. It's a necessary and beautiful stage of life. Nobody blames a baby for not being independent, but as we grow, the goal is to move beyond this. The challenge is that sometimes we carry some of the patterns of dependence into our adult relationships. This can look like needing constant validation from a partner, being unable to make decisions on your own, or feeling a sense of panic at the thought of being alone at all. It's a state of but I can't without you.
Speaker 2:Like you said, there's a natural progression from dependency to independence. But as we get older you definitely need to take some ownership and to grow away from that dependent state, Like as a woman. I think most women have dated a man who is very dependent on his mom, kind of like a mama's boy. I'm sure lots of women can relate here, and it's sweet for a while until it honestly becomes a very unattractive quality, Unfortunately. It's a good thing because they have a close relationship, but it gets taken too far and it gets a little weird.
Speaker 1:There's nothing wrong with having a good relationship with your mother as a man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but when you're 25 and mommy has to do everything for you.
Speaker 1:That's well, yeah, you can have a good relationship without being dependent on someone. Now I want to be clear. Barring extreme medical, physical or psychological circumstances, no adult is fully dependent on another person. Everyone has landed somewhere on that spectrum between full dependence and 100% independence. And if we're actually going to talk about the reality of independence versus dependence, barring a couple extreme exceptions, nobody is truly independent.
Speaker 1:We don't live in a society where every single thing that you use and every single thing that you do has to be done by yourself in order to survive.
Speaker 1:If you look at the everyday products that you use, the services that you use, the legal guarantees that we all have, the house that was built, we live in society with other people, and the foundation of that society is cooperation, trust and dependence.
Speaker 1:Through specialization and exchange, we do a job that helps society and all of the members of society. Many other people do other jobs that fill other roles of society. We are all depending on each other to lift up and uphold all of the different pieces of society. We are reliant on people that are no longer with us and their ideas and the things that they've built. So I think it's important that we all acknowledge that nobody is truly independent. We rely on using the same language. We trust each other, that words mean the same thing, so that we can actually communicate effectively. It's a very different way of looking at the world, our lives and society, but truly the amount of trust through unspoken social rules, language and exchange of goods with things as symbolic as money means that we put a lot of trust and interdependence in each other so that we can make society function much more than having to scrounge and survive on our own.
Speaker 2:That's some good insights and a little funny in a way, because I tend to consider myself a decently independent person and in the past I probably would have said I'm extremely independent. But if I was actually extremely independent I'd be some lone wolf girl living in a cave who didn't know how to communicate eating bugs for a living.
Speaker 1:With like no education.
Speaker 2:No language. I'd be like growling, who didn't know how to communicate eating bugs for a living With, like, no education, no language I'd be like growling, yeah. So it's one thing to say I'm independent, but to say I am extremely independent person it's like, well, the shirt you're wearing is from China. Someone made that. Like, I don't think you are as independent as you say, but you can have independent qualities that you appreciate about yourself. Like I said, I tend to be a fairly independent person and in the past it's been too independent to the point where when David and I were just started out dating, it was a little bit of a slower dating experience in the beginning because it took me a while to open up and to allow David inside of my world that I had created for myself because I had considered myself so independent. It can be unhealthy either way.
Speaker 1:When taken to an extreme Exactly and in general, if you were going to try and push yourself towards one of the extremes or the other in a very unsophisticated, un-nuanced approach, if you had to make it kind of a dichotomy, it's probably better to be much more on the independent side than much more on the dependent side. Being able to rely on yourself, being self-sufficient in at least a chunk of areas or, comparatively, in the world and in society in your life, being able to primarily function on your own, comes with its benefits.
Speaker 2:Let's take a minute here to define independence. Independence is about self-reliance. It's having a strong sense of self, being able to stand on your own two feet, make your own decisions and take care of your needs without constant reliance on others.
Speaker 1:So as we go through this roller coaster of life, changing our state of dependence from absolute dependence to more and more independent, becoming more and more self-reliant, we have this pendulum swing and as it swings, it swings more and more towards independence. This is the phase many of us strive for and it's pretty celebrated in our culture, especially in the US. It's the I-can-do-it-myself stage. It's about self-reliance, making your own choices and taking care of your own needs. And don't get me wrong, a healthy sense of independence is a vital part of adulthood. But if we swing the pendulum too far into this, it can lead to isolation, becomes a state of I don't need anyone. This can manifest as a reluctance to ask for help, a fear of vulnerability and keeping others at a distance to protect our own autonomy. While it feels safe, it can actually be incredibly lonely.
Speaker 2:Right, that makes sense, because I feel like with independence, you do need a strong sense of self, but that needs to come before you can connect effectively with other people, so you don't lose your own identity with other people so you don't lose your own identity.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you have to go through this journey of figuring out where your state of dependence lies and over time, like I said before, we all start at full dependence and you have to navigate this game of life to find where your dependence should end up falling.
Speaker 2:Right, and it might be a little different for different people.
Speaker 1:Oh, 100% and that's okay.
Speaker 2:The Horsham Clinic states, while crucial for personal growth, extreme independence in relationships can lead to a lack of deep connection, as individuals may struggle to rely on or accept support from a partner. I have a visual analogy to go with this. So for independence, imagine a sturdy, well-rooted tree standing tall on its own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the tree analogy is an interesting way of visualizing it. I think if you were to visualize independence going too far, it would be like the tree trying to survive without the dirt, the sun and the water.
Speaker 2:Right, and obviously it's not going to make it very far.
Speaker 1:Now let's move on to a term that I'm sure most of you have heard of Codependence. This is a more complex and often misunderstood concept.
Speaker 2:Codependency is when two things grow to become dependent upon one another, but there's a little bit of a different definition to that when it comes to human relationships. In a codependent relationship, one person relies excessively on another for emotional support and validation, often to the detriment of their own needs and well-being.
Speaker 1:It's not just being clingy. Codependence is a dysfunctional relationship pattern where one or both people's self-esteem and emotional needs are overly dependent on the other people's self-esteem and emotional needs are overly dependent on the other. It's a dynamic where one person is often the giver and the other is often the taker, but both are locked in a cycle of unhealthy reliance. The giver usually enables the taker's poor behavior and the taker relies on the giver to avoid responsibility. It's a state of I can't function without you and you can't function without me needing you.
Speaker 2:It actually had me think of the movie the Notebook. While often romanticized, the Notebook focuses on the relationship between Allie and Noah. It's an intense relationship, but it also showcases codependency. Their passionate love is entwined with a deep reliance on each other, and their inability to be apart highlights a lack of individual identity and boundaries, and they end up self-sabotaging any other relationships and individual growth that they would have because of their codependent nature. While this movie is seen as a timeless romance, it also showcases poor expectations of a relationship and what you can expect from someone else.
Speaker 1:Like unrealistic expectations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't even imagine how many divorces happened in 2004 after that movie came out. Imagine all of these women coming home from the movies and saying why don't you love me the way that Noah loved Allie? Oh man, those poor guys.
Speaker 1:So in these codependent relationships where we have the roles of giver and taker, it's often not that cut and dry. In some circumstances one person might be the giver and the other might be the taker, and vice versa. Having this fully enmeshed, multi-directional codependency, that makes up a very complex relationship. This doesn't mean that all dependence in a relationship is unhealthy. This codependent giver-taker dynamic is different from healthy dependence. It's a loss of self in the other person.
Speaker 2:I actually have a great quote from one of my favorite authors of all time, Ernest Hemingway the most painful thing is losing yourself in the process of loving someone too much and forgetting that you are special too. Oh, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:And forgetting that you are special too. Ooh, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Melody Beattie, author of Codependent no More and a codependency expert, has a lot to say on this matter, so I definitely recommend checking out her book if this is starting to resonate with you a little bit. But something that she says is the surest way to make ourselves crazy is to get involved in other people's business, and the quickest way to become sane and happy is to tend to our own affairs. After reading that, my first thought went to codependent relationships between parents and kids. I think we're kind of highlighting romantic relationships, but I think codependency shows up a lot of times with a parent and a child, and a lot of times it's the parent who has a hard time letting go of the child and allowing them to become independent. They need that dependency, so they tend to hinder their child from that growth, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure this is kind of resonating with some of the stuff that we've talked about in focusing on your locus of control and sort of Mel Robbins' let them theory where if you're trying to control other people, you're entangling yourself in things that you don't have full control over and it's often going to make things even worse and make yourself more frustrated. I think if those quotes were taken to an extreme they probably wouldn't actually be helpful, but they're trying to get across that in many circumstances, trying to manage other people's lives and not focusing on managing your own life is going to lead to dysfunctional forms of relationships and unhappiness in your own life.
Speaker 2:Going back to our tree analogy from Independence, if you recall, I have one as well for codependency. If you recall, I have one as well for codependency. One tree has wrapped its roots completely around the other, smothering and potentially strangling it, and neither can thrive independently. Or one tree is bending over completely to support a waning tree, becoming crooked and damaging itself to keep the other one up.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really helpful picture, like the visual of that, especially when you compare it to the first one, Paints a pretty clear image in my mind. So if dependence is I need you, independence is I don't need you, Independence is I don't need you, and then codependence is this tangled we need each other in an unhealthy way. Then what's the goal? Well, the goal, the sweet spot, the foundation of truly thriving relationships is interdependence. Of truly thriving relationships is interdependence.
Speaker 2:Interdependence is the state of we choose to cooperate for our mutual benefit, all while maintaining your individuality and autonomy.
Speaker 1:It's the beautiful synergistic space where two whole independent people come together to create something greater than the sum of their parts. It's not about losing yourself. It's about enhancing yourself through connection. In an interdependent relationship. You are both self-reliant and mutually supportive. You can function independently, but you choose to be together because your lives are enriched by it independently, but you choose to be together because your lives are enriched by it.
Speaker 2:It's a healthy give and take, with clean and healthy boundaries, respecting individual identities, open communication and shared responsibilities. Stephen Covey talks about this in his book the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People that dependent people need others to get what they want. Independent people can get what they want through their own efforts. Interdependent people combine their own efforts with the efforts of others to achieve their greatest success.
Speaker 1:It's funny that you bring up Stephen Covey, because two of his seven habits of highly effective people are really built around interdependence. One of them is called think win-win, which is, whenever possible, try and find a solution that is not a win for you and a lose for another person, but whenever you can find a solution that is a win for the other person and a win for you. Not everything is a zero-sum game In life. Whenever you can aim for win-win.
Speaker 1:Another one of his habits of highly effective people is to synergize. Now what does that mean? The definition of synergy is the interaction or cooperation of two or more people to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate parts. What does this mean? It's when one plus one equals three. It's when two people working together create more benefit than they could if they were working alone, and a lot of this is that foundation of society. I was talking about specialization and exchange. So if Hannah knows that I'm really good at researching things and I know that she's really good at building things, we can delegate tasks to each other that we know we are each more suited for to get a better outcome, or even better yet. We cooperate on something that we're both good at, which allows us to come up with something better than either of us could have alone.
Speaker 2:Now many people might be thinking and this is a question for you, david is interdependence just a fancy word for dependence?
Speaker 1:Is interdependence just a fancy word for dependence? No, interdependence is the ability to be primarily self-reliant, but the wisdom to choose when it's more beneficial for yourself and or for others for you to depend on other people, and when it's much more beneficial for other people to depend on you or for both of you to depend on each other, while not being locked into having to do it that way. This leaves room for things like win-win thinking and synergy.
Speaker 2:Very well said. Dependency implies a need to rely on someone else for your well-being or identity. Interdependence, as Stephen Covey said, is when independent people combine their own efforts with the efforts of others to achieve their greatest success. It's a choice to collaborate and support each other from a place of strength and not weakness and not weakness. Going back to my tree analogies for interdependence, think of two strong, well-rooted trees whose branches intertwine gracefully, supporting each other through storms but each maintaining its own trunk and root system.
Speaker 1:I think this tree example shows in a highly visual way how these different forms of dependence in our relationships have an effect on the individual, how it warps or changes or supports the tree in its life, in its journey. But what about when it comes to the relationship In between any two people? When they form a social connection of any sort, whether it's a romantic relationship, a friendship or anything else a third entity is created. You have Hannah, and then you have me, and then you have our relationship, and a lot of times relationship therapists or counselors will talk about how you have to support the health of the relationship in addition to the health of the individuals. So I want to use an analogy that talks a bit more about how these forms of dependence affect the relationship. Think of it like two strong pillars standing side by side to support a magnificent arch. If one pillar is weak dependence the arch crumbles. If the pillars are too far apart full independence they can't support anything together. If they are leaning on each other just to stay upright codependence then they are both unstable and easily knocked over. But when they stand strong on their own, side by side, not too close, not too far apart, they can create something beautiful and enduring. In this example, each pillar are the individuals making up the relationship, but the strength of the relationship or the relationship itself is the archway, not the pillars.
Speaker 1:As we saw in the example, it seems that the healthiest relationships, both for the relationship and for the individuals, are built on a foundation of interdependence. This isn't just a feel-good idea. There's science to back it up. A fascinating meta-analysis published in the Psychological Bulletin looked at numerous studies on cooperation and competition. The research consistently found that cooperation, a key element of interdependence, leads to higher achievement and greater psychological health than individualistic or competitive approaches. In essence, we are wired to thrive when we work together in healthy, interdependent ways.
Speaker 1:So how do we cultivate this in our everyday lives? Here are a few strategies. To start, let's build self-awareness. Understand your own tendencies. Do you lean towards dependence, needing constant reassurance, or are you fiercely independent, pushing away help? Acknowledging your starting point is the first step. Next, practice clear and honest communication.
Speaker 1:In interdependent relationships, individuals can express their needs and boundaries without fear of judgment or abandonment. This means using I statements, for example. Instead of saying you never helped me, you could say I feel overwhelmed and would appreciate your help with this. Your help with this, or, as we've talked about in previous episodes, the story that I'm telling myself is that. And then you fill in the blank. Third, embrace vulnerability. This is a tough one for many people, especially those who pride themselves on their independence, but true interdependence requires the courage to be vulnerable, to admit when you need help and to allow others to see your authentic self. Finally, maintain your own interests and friendships. In an interdependent relationship or partnership. You don't have to do everything together. Having your own hobbies, passions and friends outside of the relationship strengthens your sense of self, making you a stronger pillar in the arch.
Speaker 1:I want to leave you with a powerful quote from the brilliant writer and activist Bell Hooks. She said to be loving is to be open to grief, to despair, to anger and to other emotions besides just rapturous joy. To be loving is to be open to the full range of human feeling. Interdependence is about being open to that full range of human feelings. Open to that full range of human feelings both in ourselves and in others. You're not going to be perfect. Relationships are messy and it's not always easy, but it is the path to the most profound and lasting connections. So I want to invite you to reflect on your relationships. Want to invite you to reflect on your relationships. Where do you see patterns of dependence, interdependence or codependence, and how can you take one small step towards fostering more interdependence? It could be as simple as asking for help when you need it, or offering support to someone without expecting anything in return.
Speaker 2:The key takeaway of this podcast is this Strive for healthy interdependence in your relationships. Build your independence, understand where you end and others begin, and choose to connect from a place of wholeness, not neediness. Your relationships and your life will be infinitely richer for it, not neediness your relationships and your life will be infinitely richer for it.
Speaker 1:And remember you are enough and you deserve to fill up your inner cup with happiness, confidence and self-compassion. Thank you for listening to the Sage Solutions Podcast. Your time is valuable and I'm so glad you choose to learn and grow here with me. If you haven't already, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on more Sage advice. One last thing the legal language. This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. No coaching client relationship is formed. It is not intended as a substitute for the personalized advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist or other qualified professional.